Lou L Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 All, I have a dilemma with the wacky hardy hole on my anvil. The hole is 15/16"...theoretically. I say theoretically because, while it is 15/16" as measure on the top of the anvil, I can't get a 3/4" shank through the hole. The problem is that, in the first inch of the hole, two sides belly out a bit and narrow the hole considerably. Inserting the shank from the bottom is smooth and easy up to that top inch. It also fits fine in the first 1/8". Here is my dilemma: I haven't posted this question because I know the easy answer is for me to make my hardy tools to fit the hardy I have. However, I don't want to use my 200 year old anvil as a striking anvil to form the shanks for the hardy tools and it would be hard to reproduce the same shape in a striking anvil. It seems to me I have three options and I'd like input on them (or a fourth option). 1). Stop whining and use my hardy to make the shanks (anvil is 150 pounds...can it take that abuse..) 2). Make narrower shanks that fit in the narrowest section of the hardy. 3). File/grind the belly from the interior of the hole. Deep down I'd like to find out there is a relatively easy way to reshape the hole because my flea market/tailgate finds will all be useless to me without serious effort. Your suggestions are desired! Thanks, Lou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Don't know what kind of anvil you have, but many have wrought iron bodies which is soft enough to file. I would simply file the inside of your hardie hole to a consistent square. Much easier than trying to forge tools to fit it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kubiack Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 I once filed a hardy hole on a Peter Wright anvil that was about ¾” to 1”. All of my hardy tooling is 1” and I wanted to use it in this anvil so I enlarged the hole. The top was hard but it not as hard as a high quality file. It did take a while to file though. Only the top of an anvil is usually hard and your only needs 1/16” taken out. The part that swells to ¾” below the top sounds like it is probably below the hardened material. I’d just get a new large square file and enlarge the hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 I've has a little go at it a few times, about 1.5 hours today, and the going is quite slow. Guess I'm going to get me a new file. All of my good aggressive files are too wide to use. Thanks for the input everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Lou, I've found that, in my case, slow file cutting is 9 times out of 10 a dull file that I think is still good but it just "ain't" ...I am just too cheep and hate to give it up and buy a new one, LOL. I'll get a new one and then think to myself... "myself, why didn't you do this earlier??" Patience, grasshopper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockmaker Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 I had the same problem Lou with my Peter Wright, the hardy hole was 1 1/4"+ at the top but I could only get a 1" hardy shank into it, and it wobbled, and usually could not be turned 90 degrees. I figured that filling wrought could not be that hard so I started in with good files working 10 - 15 minutes a day. After about 3 weeks I had made some progress but still had a long way to go, so I bought this 1/2" X 18" mini belt sander, it did the job, still took several hours but I did not even ware out the belt. These mini belt sanders sell in the $80 range which may be more than you can justify but for me it worked.. It is so nice now to have a square straight 1 1/4" hardy hole and an adapter for 1" hardies. By the way, you will still need files to sq the corners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 New coarse Nicholson bastard file acquired today. It helped a little but I swear on everything I hold sacred that some of the steel inside the hole is hardened because the brand new file still skates in spots. There is evidence of a repair of the periphery of the hardy hole at some point in the past. It appears to have been done by someone competent because the rebound in the area isn't bad at all. It is lower than over the mass in the center of the anvil but that is to be expected. I'm thinking that some hard facing rod was applied on the inside edge. I've made great headway today but it has been a labor. The Greeks didn't think of this for the story of Heracles (I'm a nerd and use the Greek name) or this would have been one of his punishments. That little grinder is looking tempting. I just tried to rationalize other uses for it.... But this grasshopper will prevail! The good that came out of this so far: Seeing the shiny metal inside the hardy hole is weird but cool on my Isaac Hill. Also, it's clear that the weld for the face of the anvil is excellent because I can't find evidence of it on the inside. Hey, I'm desperate and reaching for reasons to rejoice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Have you priced a broach? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 7 hours ago, Lou L said: The Greeks didn't think of this for the story of Heracles (I'm a nerd and use the Greek name) If you really wanted to geek out, you'd use the "Herakles" transliteration. 6 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said: Have you priced a broach? A little quick Google-Fu shows me that 1" square broaches seem to generally run around a couple hundred bucks US. I'm wondering (especially since I have a similar problem with the hardy hole on my own anvil) if it might be worthwhile to make (or get a machinist friend to make) what one might call a "finishing broach" that only has enough teeth for the final few fractions of an inch. Here's an interesting video of someone making a smaller broach out of O1: (Caveat: I am not a machinist, so I have no idea whether or not any of this is well done or even a good idea in the first place.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 1 hour ago, JHCC said: If you really wanted to geek out, you'd use the "Herakles" transliteration. You know, it's terrible that I knew that and still spelled it wrong. It was late...I was being snarky and failed! I honestly hadn't considered a broach. I've seen that video before (I'm a sunscriber to Clickspring...he's the guy currently building a copy of the Antikythera device) but I don't have his tooling or his incredible skills. I also imagine a 1" broach would require considerable force. After yesterday's filing session I would coach anyone with this issue to do a cost benefit analysis. It doesn't make sense to spend the equivalent of a new anvil on trying up your old anvil's hardy. On the other hand, one has to value the time and effort that goes in to hand filing for hours. If you can buy something that will provide utility down the road for other work and it is t super expensive it is worth it if your hardy needs a lot of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 you are positioning the anvil so the face you are filing is horizontal and oriented down right? Easier to apply good pressure that way and so many students don't seem to understand that one is allowed to position stuff to make the job easier! Broaches work best when you have a lot of controlled power to hand. If you were in Ohio I'd send you to Edco in Lima to see if they had a broach in the surplus stuff. I remember visiting the "Mothership" about 15+ years ago and wandering through the decaying warehouse of WWII surplus machine tooling and seeing a 5-6' pile of broaches with snow drifting down on them from a hole in the roof. (I'd bet they went ahead and scrapped everything when the rates were high; but...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 Nope, Thomas, I'm a knucklehead. Though, I did work from a variety of positions based on what section I was filing. I found that standing directly over the anvil allowed me to see the "bellies" inside and I could use just a little bit of body weight and legs to take the load off of my arms. Note of caution: when filing in said position be careful not to pull the file all the way out of the hole because the forces at work will turn the file into a crotch spear.... One small section of the inside of the hole is, 100% certain, hardened. It skates even a new file. I had to get a diamond sharpener that goes with the hone in my kitchen. It took a while but I was able to slowly wear it down. The hardy hole is currently at 15/16 all the way through. Should be at 1" by end of day today. But I really want to get the forge going...it's been quiet for two days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Do you have any chisels? A chisel can remove more metal faster than a file to rough it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 4 hours ago, Lou L said: One small section of the inside of the hole is, 100% certain, hardened. It skates even a new file. I had to get a diamond sharpener that goes with the hone in my kitchen. It took a while but I was able to slowly wear it down. The hardy hole is currently at 15/16 all the way through. Should be at 1" by end of day today. But I really want to get the forge going...it's been quiet for two days. Lou, if you now have the hardie hole a uniform size all the way, then to keep from having to file more, you might do what I have done on some repurposed hardie shanks...I ground them down with an angle grinder. If you grind only 1/16" on two adjacent faces of the shank, then you'll be there. MUCH easier to remove that small amount of stock on the shank with an angle grinder than trying to take more off the inside of the hole with a file. You might have to grind down any future 1" shanks, but that might hold you a spell until you get the urge to file the inside of the hole some more.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted August 19, 2017 Author Share Posted August 19, 2017 @arkie, I was considering that seriously. I stopped working on the hardy hole and did some forging tonight instead. I kept holding the 1" shank of my new mandrel up to the hole and stewing on it. The tiny little perfectionist in me wants to make it "right". But I think you are on to something. When I really need that mandrel I will make the decision. I'm hoping to pick up some hardy tools at the NEB Fall meet. I would like to know what I'm going to have by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 it is possible to "hand grind" a surface by wrapping silicon carbide paper around a piece of steel strapping and use it like a 2 way file...very slow but possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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